HomeMy WebLinkAboutA002 - Legal opinion dated September 16, 1996 AMES
CITY OF AMES
CITY ATTOKNEY'S OFFICE P.O.BOX 811 AMES IOWA 50010
Community-University-Opportunity 515 CLAKK AVENUE
PHONE 515-239-5146 ♦ FAX 515-239-5142
September 16, 1996
SFP 1
The Honorable Larry R. Curtis, Mayor, 99
C/
and Members of the City Council
of the City of Ames, Iowa
Re: Lap-Dancing Ordinance
Dear Mayor Curtis and Council Members
As you may recall, at the Council's last consideration of the subject ordinance, objection
was expressed on the grounds of gender discrimination because the prescribed conduct
entails the exposure of a female breast or female breast with only the nipple covered,
leaving it possible for a male entertainer to do what a female entertainer is prohibited from
doing under the ordinance.
Attached is an excerpt from a 5th Circuit Court of Appeals case in which exclusion of male
breasts from the definition of the prescribed conduct was upheld when the City Council
considered evidence of physiological and sexual distinctions between female and male
breasts. In that regard, there is also attached for your consideration the testimony of Dr. J.
Douglass Crowder, Psychiatrist at the University of Texas Southwestern Medical School
regarding the physiological and sexual distinctions between male and female breasts.
Yours truly,
John R. Klaus
City Attorney
JRK:gmw
Enclosure
Testimony of Doctor J . Douglass Crowder
Regarding the physiological and sexual distinctions
between male and female breasts
82/28/96' 116:84:26 West Publi 'ig Co.-> 515 239 5142 `" Page 003
65 F.3d 1248 Page 2
(Cite as: 65 F.3d 1248) '3'�"s�
D� t
No. 92-117. 92k224(2)
<.:;., .ti
City ordinance's "no touch" provision, which N16A
[6] CONSTITUTTONAL LAW k90.4(5) prohibited intentional touching between nude
92k90.4(5) performer and customer, did not violate Equal
Topless-bar patrons have no First.Amendment Rights Amendment of Texas Constitution,
right to touch nude dancer. U.S.C•.A. even though ordinance excluded male breasts
Const.Amend. 1. from its definition of nudity; evidence showed
that city council considered physiological and
[71 CONSTITUTIONAL LAW k90.4(5) sexual distinctions between female and male
92k90.4(5) breasts, and topless bar that challenged
Nonperforming nude employees of topless bar ordinance presented no evidence that
could not claim First Amendment protection ordinance discriminated against women solely
solely by virtue of their nudity. U.S.C.A. on basis of gender. Vernon's Ann.Texas
Const.Amend. 1. Const. Art. 1, § 3a; Arlington, Tx., Ordinance
No. 92-117.
[81 CONSTITUTIONAL LAW k90.4(5)
92k90.4(5) [10] INTOXICATING LIQUORSk15
City ordinance's "no touch" provision, which 223k15
prohibited touching-between, nude performer City ordinance's "no touch" provision, which
and customer, did not burden m,orP_Lrotected prohibited intentional touching between nude
expression than was essential to further city's performer• and customer, did not violate Equal
in eres in nrwe +•�n� moc .itu.ion. drug Rights Amendment of Texas Constitution,
dealing,g, and assault, and ordinance was thus even though ordinance excluded male breasts
not unconstitutionally overbroad, despite from its definition of nudity; evidence showed
topless bar's claim that,because ordinance did that city council considered physiological and
not specify requisite mental state, it sexual distinctions between female and male
criminalized accidental or inadvertent breasts, and topless bar that, challenged
touching; under Texas law, ordinance ordinance presented no evidence that
required culpable mental state and, thus did...- ordinance discriminated against women solely
not cri_mina ize inadvertent _or negligent_ on basis of gender. Vernon's Ann.Texas
touching. U.S.C.A.Const.Amend. 1; V.T.C.A., Const. Art. 1, § 3a; Arlington, Tx., Ordinance
Penal Code § 6.02(b, c); Arlington, Tx., No. 92-117.
Ordinance No. 92-117.
(10l MITNICIFAL CORPORATIONS 11120
[91 CONSTITUTiONAL LAW k230.3(6) 268k120
92k230.3(6) City ordinance's "no touch" provision, which
City ordinance's "no touch" provision, which prohibited intentional touching between nude
prohibited touching between nude performer performer and customer, did not violate Equal
and customer, did not violate equal protection Rights Amendment of Texas Constitution,
clause of Federal Constitution, even though it even though ordinance excluded male breasts
applied to adult cabarets but not to other adult from its definition of nudity; evidence showed
entertainment establishments; city could that city council considered physiological and
rationally conclude that adult cabarets, which sexual distinctions between female and male
typically serve alcohol and attract large breasts, and topless bar that challenged
crowds, were more likely venue than nude ordinance presented no evidence that
modeling studios for evils of prostitution, drug ordinance discriminated against women solely
dealing, and sexual violence that "no touch" on basis of gender. Vernon's Ann.Texas
provision sought to eliminate. U.S.C.A. Const. Art. 1, § 3a; Arlington, Tx., Ordinance
Const.Amend. 14; Arlington, Tx., Ordinance No. 92-117.
No. 92-117.
[10]MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS k121
(101 CONSTiTUTIONAL LAW k224(2) 268k121
Copr. "''West 1996 No claim to orig. U.S. govt. works
Dr Ex Crowder by Field
1 scheduled to be here at 3 : 30 which -is ten minutes , may
2 we request a ten minute bread until our witness
3 arrives .
4 THE COURT: Sure .
5 MS . FIELD: Thank you.
6 ( Recess . )
7 THE COURT: Call your next witness .
8 MR. SWANDER: Thank you, Your Honor . We call
9 Doctor Jake Crowder .
10 THE COURT: You may proceed.
11 DOCTOR J. DOUGLAS CROWDER,
12 having been first duly cautioned and sworn to testify the
( 13 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, testified as
14 follows :
15 DIRECT EXAMINATION
16 BY MS . FIELD:
17 Q Please state your name for the record.
18 A J . Douglas Crowder .
19 Q What is your business address , Doctor Crowder?
20 A 5323 Harry Hines Boulevard, Dallas , 75235 .
21 Q And what is your occupation?
22 A I 'm a psychiatrist .
23 Q How long have you been a licensed psychiatrist?
24 A I have licensed to practice medicine in Texas since
25 1980 . I was board certified in psychiatry in 1988 .
d. 1 . calvin, csr 186
Dr Ex Crowder by Field
1 Q Thank you. In what states besides Texas , if any,
2 you are licensed?
3 A I 'm also licensed in Virginia .
4 Q Doctor Crowder, where did you attend undergraduate
5 school?
6 A Abilene Christian University.
7 Q And that' s here in Texas , right?
8 A Yes .
9 Q Did you receive any honors upon graduation?
10 A Yes . I graduated with highest honors .
11 Q When specifically did you graduate?
12 A 1977 .
13 Q Upon graduation from undergraduate school did you
14 pursue any postgraduate degrees?
15 A Yes. I received a degree Doctor of Medicine from
16 the University of Texas Southwestern Medical School in 1980 .
17 Q And up to that point, up to the point of graduation
18 had you, from graduation at medical school , had you
19 specialized?
20 A No. Specialization comes after medical school .
21 Q And what specialty did you pursue after medical
22 school?
23 A Psychiatry.
24 Q And where did you pursue that specialty?
25 A That was here in Dallas also at Southwestern Medical
d. 1 . calvin, csr 187
Dr Ex Crowder by Field
1 School .
2 Q And what was the method of your pursuing that
3 specialty?
4 A The method was me going to work . 'I 'm not certain
5 what you mean. It was a residency I think is what you are
6 meaning, four year residency in adult psychiatry.
7 Q Thank you. After you completed your residency what
8 was the next step if any in your education?
9 A I did one year fellowship at the University of
10 Virginia, that was in forensic psychiatry.
11 Q For the record what is forensic psychiatry?
12 A That' s psychiatry as it relates to legal issues .
13 Q And when did you complete your fellowship in
C
14 forensic psychiatry?
15 A That was in July 1985 .
16 Q After completion of your fellowship what did you do?
17 A I joined the faculty at the medical school here in
18 Dallas.
19 Q Specifically which medical school?
20 A University of Texas Southwestern Medical School .
21 Q And what do you do with the faculty of the medical
22 school , what specifically do you teach or do?
23 A I supervise consultation and liaison psychiatry,
24 which is psychiatry that relates to patients that have both
25 medical and psychiatric problems . I do individual
i
d. 1 . calvin, csr 188
Dr Ex Crowder by Field
1 psychotherapy. I treat some sex offenders . I also do forensic
2 psychiatry such as we' re doing today. I teach classes from
3 time to time and do supervision for residents doing
4 psychotherapy.
5 Q Doctor Crowder, I would like to hand you a copy of
6 your curriculum vitae. And just can you to identify for Lt for
7 the record.
8 A Yes, that' s mine .
9 Q Is that the a true and correct copy of it?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And that is up-to-date?
12 A Yes .
C13 Q And just for the record, Doctor Crowder, since I
14 just had this marked Defendant' s 1 is your curriculum vitae , is
15 it not?
16 A Yes .
17 MS . FIELD: Your Honor , I would offer
18 Defendant' s 1 .
19 MR. SWANDER: No objection, Your Honor .
20 THE COURT: Okay. Admitted.
21 MS . FIELD: Thank you.
22 ( "Defendant' s 1 identified,
23 offered and admitted. )
24 BY •MS . FIELD:
25 Q Doctor Crowder, are you a member of any
d. 1 . calvin, csr 189
Dr Ex Crowder by Field
1 organizations?
2 A Yes .
3 Q What organizations are those?
4 A I 'm member of the American Medical Association,
5 American Academy of Psychiatry in the Law, and the American
6 Psychiatric Association.
7 Q And have you authored any papers or articles?
8 A Yes .
9 Q The list of those is contained on your curriculum
10 vitae, Defendant' s Exhibit 1?
11 A That' s correct.
12 Q Before I go further, Doctor, do you perform any
13 special type of work for any organizations?
14 A Yes. I 'm a consultant to the United States Secret
15 Service .
16 Q And what type of work do you do in that connection?
17 A I educate secret service agents about the theory of
18 predicting dangerousness . I also help them with issues of
19 psychiatric illness in general. And I aid them in liaison with
20 the mental health community.
21 Q Thank you. Doctor , is your work confined solely to
22 teaching?
23 A No .
24 Q And what other things besides teaching do you do ,
25 just outline briefly for the Court?
l
d. 1 . calvin, csr 190
Dr Ex Crowder by Field
1 A Well , and I said a moment ago I do actual treatment
2 of patients both in psychotherapy, also medication treatment of
3 patients . And as a psychiatrist, Doctor Crowder, you are also
4 a licensed physician; is that correct?
5 A That' s correct.
6 Q Doctor Crowder, during your training as a medical
7 doctor what type of training, if any, did you receive based on
8 the physical differences between men and woman?
9 A obviously our course in anatomy, also the course in
10 physiology as well as a course called human sexualty and
11 reproduction, all of those related to the instruction in human
12 bodies and the difference between sexes . Can you please
C13 explain for the record the external differences between the
14 male and female body?
15 A Externally speaking woman have the deposition of fat
16 tissue in some different places than men do. Specifically in
17 the breast and the buttock, and also there is a lateral fat pad
18 on the legs and that produces the familiar female versus male
19 silhouette and body shape.
20 Q Specific, Doctor Crowder, what the physiological
21 differences between the male and female breast?
22 A The male breast of course is not functional in the
23 sense of producing milk for an infant like a female breast is .
24 Additional the female breast is more sensitive to tactile.
25 stimulation, sexual stimulation . The visual difference isIthat
d. 1 . calvin, csr 191
Dr Ex Crowder by Field
1 the female nipple and areola, which is the area surrounding the
2 nipple and larger in the female , and of course there is much
3 more fat tissue on average surrounding the breast tissue .
4 MS . FIELD: If I may approach the witness , Your
5 Honor .
6 BY MS . FIELD:
7 Q Doctor Crowder , for the record I will hand you
8 Defendant' s Exhibit 2. Please identify the highlighted portion
9 of that Exhibit, please?
10 A You have the word breast highlighted, and it' s two
11 definition.
12 Q Okay. I would ask you at this time to please review
13 the definition as contained on that document and review it for
l 14 the purpose of determining whether 'it is- an appropriate
15 physiological definition?
16 A You would like for me to read it?
17 Q Yes, please. Please read it first to yourself
18 before you answer the question.
19 A Okay. Now what question would you like me to
20 answer?
21 Q My question was would you please tell the Court
22 whether that is an appropriate physiological definition of
23 breast?
24 A Yes , I would say so.
25 Q Okay. Thank you.
d. 1 . calvin, csr 192
Dr Ex Crowder by Field
1 MS . FIELD: I will offer as soon as counsel has
2 an opportunity to review it, Your Honor , Defendant' s
3 Exhibit 2 .
4 MR. SWANDER: No problem, Judge , with
5 Defendant' s Exhibit 2 .
6 THE COURT: Admitted.
7 ( `Defendant' s 2 identified,
8 offered and admitted. )
9 BY MS . FIELD:
10 Q For the record, Doctor Crowder , would you please
11 please read the definition that' s contained on Defendant' s
12 Exhibit 2, the highlighted portion, the highlighted definition
/ 13 A "1 . The milk-forming organ of the female , the
l 14 mammmary gland; mamma. 1 . The front of the chest. "
15 And there is another set of definitions , would you
16 like those read also?
17 Q Yes, please. .
18 A "Breast, 1 . Either of the two milk producing organs
. 19 on the front of the chest of a woman, or certain female
20 mammals; a mammary gland; the corresponding flat structure on
21 the chest of a man. 2 . The front part of a chest; the front
22 part of the trunk from neck to the abdomen . "
23 Q Thank you. Doctor , I will now hand you* what has
24 been marked as Defendant' s Exhibit 3 , ask you to identify what
25 the highlighted portion of that Exhibit is?
d. 1 . calvin, csr 193
Dr Ex Crowder by Field
1 A That' s a short discussion of the mammary gland .
2 Q Okay. And would you please review that tell me
3 whether physiologically and medically that' s a correct
4 definition?
5 A Yes I would say it' s a medically, medically accurate
6 and appropriate .
7 Q Okay. There is a diagram just below that I believe ,
8 what does that purport to be a diagram of?
9 A The mammary gland as discussed just above it .
10 Q And is that a correct diagram also?
11 A Yes .
12 Q Okay.
/ 13 MS . FIELD: Your Honor , we willl offer
l 14 Defendant' s .Exhibit 3 .
15 MR. SWANDER: No objection, Your Honor .
16 THE COURT: Admitted.
17 ( "Defendant' s 3 identified,
18 offered and admitted. )
19 BY MS . FIELD:
20 Q Would you please , Doctor , read for the record the
21 definition mammary gland ' as contained on Defendant ' s Exhibit 3?
22 A "The breast or milk-secreting organ of the female .
23 The human breast consists essentially of about fifteen to
24 twenty secreting units embed in a cushion of fat and supported
25 by a network of connective tissue . Each unit , which looks
t
d. 1 . calvin, csr 194
Dr Ex Crowder by Field
1 somewhat like a small bunch of grapes , begins at the periphery
2 of the breast ( as from the rim of a wheel ) and extends like a
3 spoke toward the nipple ( the hub) . As each unit or lobe
4 converges towards the nipple the amount of glandular or
5 secreting tissue diminishes ( like the wedge of pie ) , while the
6 fine milk—carrying ducts combine to form a stalklike outlet in
7 the nipple . This stalklike outlet is known as the lactiferous
8 duct. There are as many lactiferous ducts as there are lobes
9 or units in the breast . Each opens through a tiny pore in the
10 nipple . "
11 Q Doctor Crowder , is that definition, is the
12 definition or even the term mammary gland applicable to a male
�- 13 breast?
14 A I would say not, no.
15 Q I would ask you to please review Defendant ' s Exhibit
16 No. 4 . And the purpose I would like you to review it is to see
17 if that' s a correct anatomical depiction of a breast as well as
18 the parts -- I mean of a mammary gland as well as the parts
19 contained in it?
20 A Yes, it is .
21 Q Okay.
22 MS . FIELD: We also will offer Defendant' s
23 Exhibit 4 , Your Honor, when counsel for plaintiffs has
24 an opportunity to review it.
25 MR. SWANDER: No objection to it, Your Honor .
d. 1 . calvin, csr 195
Dr Ex Crowder by Field
r
1 THE COURT: Admitted.
2 MS . FIELD: Thank you, Your Honor .
3 ( `Defendant ' s 4 identified,
4 offered and admitted. )
5 BY MS . FIELD:
6 Q Doctor Crowder , looking at Defendant ' s Exhibit No . 4
7 and looking first initially at the first page of the two pages
8 contained in that Exhibit which of those anatomical parts , for
9 lack of a better word, anatomical subparts of ' a mammary gland
10 are common to the male breast?
11 A Ah, none of these would be except arguably some of
12 the fatty tissue that you see here . That would be the only one
13 that I think would apply. And it ' s really different between
14 the two; but certainly there is some fatty tissue below the
15 surface of male breasts .
16 Q Thank you.
17 A Excuse me, the nipple -- I 'm sorry -- the nipple and
18 areola are included here and I didn' t think those were
19 included; but those also would be common, although they have a
20 different function and different structure in the two sexes .
21 Q Okay. Thank you . Doctor Crowder , when do the
22 differences between the male and female breast manifest
23 themselves?
24 A At puberty.
25 Q And do you male breasts change at puberty?
d. 1 . calvin, csr 196
Dr Ex Crowder by Field
l
1 A In essence, no .
2 Q And what about the female breasts?
3 A Yeah, they change a great deal .
4 Q Okay. And without being unduly repetitive what
5 specifically changes about them?
6 A The subcutaneous fat depositions occur . There is a0
7 development of lactiferous ducts that you see here , and they
8 become functional if indeed the woman becomes pregnant and has
9 a child.
10 Q What then would be the difference between a male and
11 a female breast of a male and female past puberty even at a
12 glance?
13 A The difference would be that the woman' s breasts are
C
14 going to be much larger , more obvious . Again the nipple in the
15 areola would probably be larger in a woman' s breast than in a
16 man' s breast. It would be easy to identify that size
17 difference .
18 Q Thank you. Doctor Crowder , in your training as a
19 physician does that training include training in human
20 sexualty?
21 A Yes .
22 Q Could you tell us briefing what that training
23 entails , both your training as physician and psychiatrist in
24 that area?
25 A Well , we are given courses relating to human
I
d . 1 . calvin, csr 197
Dr Ex Crowder by Field
r
1 sexualty both in medical school also as part of formal
2 education of a residency.
3 Q And based on that experience and training what are
4 the differences between a male and female breast other the
5 physiological differences that we talked about?
6 A The visual stimulus of a breast is different on the
7 average between men and woman. Men are much more prone to be
8 aroused by visual stimuli as opposed to woman who are less
9 aroused by visual stimuli . So there is that difference .
10 Additionally of course tactile stimulation seems to be stronger
11 in woman, sensitivity to tactile stimulation is stronger in
12 women than in men.
/ 13 Q Doctor Crowder , if you will permit me I would like
l 14 to give an example . Based on your training as a physician and
15 a psychiatrist if a woman past puberty was walking down the
16 street with nothing but a pair of shorts on, what would you
17 expect to be the reaction?
18 A After the initial surprise I would think that a lot
19 of the males who are also past puberty would regard that as
20 something of an invitation to engage in some sort of sexual
21 relationship with the woman. That would probably be the most
22 common response that men would have . woman actually would
23 probably view it in the same way, although without the
24 stimulating element to them.
25 Q Based on your experience and training as physician
d. 1 . calvin, csr 198
Dr Ex Crowder by Field
1 as a psychiatrist what would you expect to be the reaction to a
2 man walking down the street with nothing but a pair of shorts
3 on?
4 A It would be very dissimilar . That would be regarded
5 likely as an informal manner of dress rather than a sexual
6 statement.
7 Q What would you expect to be the reaction of
8 individuals viewing, based on your experience and training, to
9 a man or a woman -walking down the street with their buttock
10 exposed?
11 A There would probably be a similar response in the
12 sense that a woman doing that would be regarded as perhaps
13 making an invitation to engage in some sort of sexual
14 relationship; alternatively it might be regarded as a sign of
15 mental illness; or perhaps mearly a sign of disgust, a crass
16 sign of disgust, if you will, that some might display for to
17 show displeasure in some way. So those I think would be the
18 likely reactions .
19 Q Would that apply in the same respect whether it was
20 man or woman with their buttock supposed?
21 A Again, men being more visually stimulated than
22 woman, I would think that the woman doing that would be
23 somewhat different, although it' s hard to expose that without
24 also exposing genitalia to so some extent so some sexual
25 connotation would certainly occur to people I think in both of
r
d. 1 . calvin, csr 199
Dr Ex Crowder by Field
1 those cases .
2 Q Doctor Crowder , would a definition of nudity for
3 woman meet the medical and anatomical and societal concepts of
4 nudity and sexuality if it included bare breasts?
5 MR. SWANDER: Your Honor, I 'm going to have to
6 object to that, it seems beyond the scope of his
7 expertise . I think now we ' re going into matters of
8 semantics and dictionary skills as opposed to medical
9 skills .
10 THE COURT: Well , sustained. Just keep asking
11 questions.
12 MS. FIELD: Your Honor , you sustained the
C 13 objection, but you don' t want me to -- you want me to
14 repeat the question?
15 THE COURT: I don' t know if you have the proper
16 foundation.
17 BY MS . FIELD:
18 Q Doctor Crowder, based on your training as a
19 physician and as a psychiatrist and your training in human
20 sexuality, would a definition of nudity for woman comply with
21 your medical and anatomical , and the concepts you have been
22 trained in for human sexualty, if it included bare breasts?
23 MR. SWANDER: Again, Your Honor , I object
24 because I don' t understand the question. But number
25 two, I would say it is still calling for him to give
d. 1 . calvin, csr 200
Dr Ex Crowder by Field
1 an opinion as to whether or not a definition was
2 proper . We object that that exceeds the scope of his
3 identified expertise. Further, we would object that
4 whether or not the good Doctor thinks the definition
5 is proper or improper is completely irrelevant.
6 Third, we would object as the question is not given
7 it' s proper context and that definition of nudity that
8 we' re concerned about in this particular case is in
9 the context of an ordinance attempting to regulation
10 sexually oriented businesses as to their location.
11 MS . FIELD: Your Honor, Mr . Swander has cited us
12 to the Penal Code and to everything else in his
f 13 argument about what their definitions are, what the
l 14 Alcoholic Beverage Code says , what the Penal Code
15 says ; and so for him to now say, no, you have to look
16 at it in the context of sexually oriented business is
17 ludicrous .
18 THE COURT: Well, you never objected; but anyway
19 I 'm going to overrule his objection. I think there is
20 sufficient foundation with his curriculum vitae
21 history.
22 Move along.
23 A It is a bit anticlimactic, but I would say yes .
24 BY MS . FIELD:
25 Q Based on your training and your experience as a
d. 1 . calvin, csr 201
Cr Ex Crowder by Swander
1 physician and psychiatrist would the definition of nudity,
2 would the definition of nudity for woman, comply with that
3 training and expertise if it allowed woman' s as well as men' s
4 breasts to be bare?
5 A There is a major difference between the cultural and
6 personal interpretation of bare breasts between men and woman .
7 And so to make such a distinction is certainly consistent with
8 what we know medically about human sexual response , and the
9 interpretation of sexual stimuli and body, the visual
10 stimulation of being supposed to body parts .
11 MS . FIELD: Pass the witness .- Your Honor .
12 CROSS EXAMINATION.
13 BY MR. SWANDER:
14 Q Doctor Crowder , have you ever been to Las Vegas?
15 A I have not.
16 Q Have you ever been to a topless bar?
17 A Yes .
18 Q Were the dancers there male or female?
19 A Female.
20 Q Were they topless?
21 A Yes .
22 Q Did that surprise you in anyway when you went to the
23 topless bar that you saw topless female dancers there?
24 A No, it did not .
25 Q Were the customers there , if you were one , were you
d. 1 . calvin, csr 202
Cr Ex Crowder by Swander
1 concerned with the biological makeup of the female breasts?
2 A I don' t understand the question, could you ask that
3 again.
4 Q Were you concerned with how the female breast
5 appeared, or were you concerned with the medical definitions of
6 what a female breast entailed?
7 A Was I when I was there , was I concerned with it?
8 Q Yes .
9 A No, not particularly.
10 Q Okay. You were , when you were at the -- you were
11 asked earlier about the fact that there are differences between
12 a male nipple and female areola, is that right?
f 13 A Yes .
l 14 Q Now are they both erogenous zones?
15 A They may be considered that way. There are
16 differences however . Nipple erection with sexual arousal for
17 instance is thought be universal in woman, and maybe only
18 twenty 20 to 30 percent in males. But,- yes , they might be
19 considered that way.
20 Q Now what you saw of the female dancer or
21 entertainer, was that different to you occuring in a topless
22 nightclub as opposed to walking down a street?
23 A Again , I 'm not sure I understand the question. was
24 being in there different than being on the street? Is that?
25 Q I think I asked you if you expected to see a topless
d. 1 . calvin, csr 203
Cr Ex Crowder by Swander
1 female dancer in the bar .
2 A Yes .
3 Q And in answer to counsel ' s question you said it
4 would be surprising I believe to see a topless female walking
5 down a street?
6 A Yes , it would be .
7 Q Would it be surprising to see a topless female in a
8 topless bar?
9 A No, I wouldn' t say that that' s surprising .
10 Q Now, you were called upon to give an opinion as to
11 whether or not I believe a definition of nudity should include
12 the term female breast?
C 13 A Not that it should include female breast , but would
14 a position on female breasts and the exposure to them, would
15 that be an issue in terms of the definition of nudity, that' s
16 the way I understand the question. And, yes , female breasts
17 are related to the concept of nudity in my opinion.
18 Q Is there any feeling that, or any opinion that you
19 have, concerning the definition of nudity that concerned itself
20 with location of where this female nudity, exposure of the
21 breasts , was to be exposed versus nudity in general?
22 MS . FIELD: Objection . That' s beyond the scope
23 of direct, that' s was not gone into in my direct
24 testimony.
25 THE COURT: Well , overruled.
d. 1 . calvin, csr 204
Cr Ex Crowder by Swander
1 BY MR. SWANDER:
2 A Would you repeat the question, please?
3 Q Is there any distinction in your mind or in your
4 understanding of the definition of nudity as it applies to
5 where the nude exposure was taking place? In other words , a
6 definition of nudity applicable only to certain locations ,
7 would that necessarily only include the female breast or would
8 it include other parts of the anatomy?
9 A Other parts of the anatomy would be included in the
10 concept of nudity.
11 Q Is there a distinction between the human anus and
12 the human buttock?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Could you -- when you were at the topless nightclub
15 did you see exposed in any sense the human anus?
16 A No.
17 Q Did you see exposed the human buttock?
18 A Partially.
19 Q Partially. Did that offend you in anyway?
20 MS . FIELD: Objection, Your Honor , that is not
21 relevant to this case .
22 THE COURT: Sustained .
23 BY MR. SWANDER:
24 Q Did it surprise you?
25 A It did not surprise me .
d. 1 . calvin, csr 205
Cr Ex Crowder by .Swander
1 Q If a dancer was performing, a female dancer was
2 performing, in a topless bar topless in term of the reaction of
3 male audience would it make any difference where the particular
4 performance was occuring, the location of the particular
5 performance?
6 A Where ever this sort of nudity occurs there can be
7 of course a similar sexually stimulating response .
8 Q But it wouldn ' t matter whether it was in Downtown
9 Dallas or in North Dallas?
10 MS . FIELD: I 'm going to object, Your Honor, the
11 locational requirements of the ordinance are not in
12 dispute in this case . The location, the disbursement ,
13 as Mr . Swander has already previously said is not
14 being challenged in this case , so I object to
15 relevance .
16 THE COURT: Sustained.
17 MS . FIELD: And no pleadings .
18 BY MR. SWANDER:
19 Q You mentioned the functional differences of the
20 female breast from the male breast, you would admit though that
21 males do have a breast?
22 A They have an area that some people call a breast ,
23 it' s really not in anyway the same , even though the same word
24 may be used it isn' t in anyway the same as the female breast .
25 It' s really quite a different, quite a different thing.
d, 1 . calvin, csr 206